posted 09-07-2007 11:01 PM         

answer: 1989-----the year that we stopped feeding on the public and began eating our own.(lol)

posted 09-07-2007 11:35 PM            

for one, I want to be the first to go on the non-anonymous record by stating I'm not one of the moles...I could be, but I'm not!

Hell! I can't be, I'm having too much fun "devining the truth" and "chart gazing"....

posted 09-08-2007 06:48 AM         

Is TV there?

If anyone wants to send him a message, here is his email address;
www.tvpoly@aol.com

posted 09-08-2007 12:28 PM         

The original message here was that for years I've heard of schools giving gifts to inspector(s) for "optimistic" reports/accredidation. Rumors are just rumors aren't they?

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-08-2007).]

posted 09-08-2007 05:06 PM            

Do you think it's wise to to post any and all rumors you've heard? I've heard lots of rumors, but I've never heard that one about TV. The APA has a process to deal with ethical violations, and that's where such charges should be filed.

What we've been discussion here, albeit from a distance, is the fact that polygraph has been besmirched by allegations and what still should be confidential "findings" by TV. (We all know our "findings" as investigators aren't "findings" like, for example, a court would make, as it only has the authority to do so. In the Marston school case, the BOD should hear from its investigator as part of its trial before making its findings and dispensing whatever justice is appropriate.)

I have problems - big problems - with the "leak" of that document, and that it's out is a fact. That there are real allegations against the Marston school is a fact. Because those are public, and because they affect us all, I think they are fair to discuss in limited fashion. We shouldn't usurp the authority of those entrusted to do the right thing here. If they fail in that regard (in our humble opinions), then we can openly discuss and debate that, I believe anyhow.

To just throw rumors out is irresponsible. Why should TV have to answer to us in this forum? Moreover, what if he did take a gift from one of the schools? Does that mean he would then overlook issues? What about every free cup of coffee a police officer takes? Does that mean each one is on the take? Unless APA has a rule against such gifts, then I don't know that he's done any wrong even if that portion of the "rumor" is true. If he accepted a gift in exchange for a good report when such a report was not deserved, then that's a problem. You should have real facts - and maybe you do, I don't know - before you just toss it out there. (Note: you suggested gifts in exchange for wrongful conduct. Then you asked if he ever accepted a gift - a gift that isn't necessarily a "payoff" for anything. So, you've set him up for doom. My word, if he had a cup of coffee by the host school, he'd have to answer your only question in the affirmative, and then (following your logic) we'd be left to conclude ill motive on both sides (TV and the school).

Don't forget, there are real people behind these "rumors." If somebody has messed up, then sure, there are steps to fix those things. If not, we shouldn't just start a witch hunt. (So, please all, put the fires out for now. We're not going to burn anybody at the stake today. I hope anyhow.)

posted 09-08-2007 06:09 PM            

That the report was leaked is huge concern. That the leaker portends to "apologize" to the anti-community is a sick joke. That person didn't leak the report out of concern for or any sense of obligation to the sensibilities of the anti site. It's an obvious attempt to cause trouble. A temper tantrum. It was a simple act of treachery and double-cross, out of retaliation for the fact that someone didn't get his way. How hard is it going to be to guess who are the likely culprits? Most concerning is the person's willingness to switch sides for personal convenience. Why would a persons do that? Lessee now, anyone ever read the history of Alcibides.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 09-08-2007 06:48 PM         

Who here DID NOT get out early from poly school classes---or ANY classes at any institution for that matter? Honestly, who here had polygraph classes that were timed like a bank safe? Not me, not 2 examiners I spoke with from 2 other famous schools. Give me a f'n break.

posted 09-08-2007 07:20 PM         

Barry, you are right about it being unwise to post "rumors." It is immature. Like a country with no broad based media, we examiners are very limited to how we can exchange information----and consequently, we examiners seem to be the last to know wrongs or percieved wrongs while the antisite are the first. I have worked on creating a polygraph school abroad, and I have spoken to others who have schools up and running. There is a culture of fear within the ranks of polygraph educators regarding APA leadership-----as accredidation isn't merely a "bonus" but the deal breaker for schools. Unlike US colleges who have 3 accredidation bodies, polygraph schools have only one. Each school is at the mercy of what amounts to be fair rules across the board, but governed and evaluated by one man (APA School Inspector.) That one man seemed to have either intentionally or inadvertantly (through another's actions without the Inspector's knowledge) handed the enemy a sensetive inspection investigation report. Incidentally, the poster (leaker) on antipolygraph used the APA's own "dedicated to truth" moto----a narcissistic choice of words to say the least.

Barry, am I spreading rumors here or am I engaging in internal journalism here?

p.s. I at no time pretend to speak for the other poly place members-----ever. This is no witch hunt-----and since when does asking any elected officials hard questions about scandelous events a witch hunt? Witches were powerless, outcasted women who were accused of evil doings, not the most powerful polygraph educator in the world who may have made a grave error in judgement.

posted 09-08-2007 07:50 PM         

Yes, I have cut classes and left early from many LE training classes. When I attended Backster's, it was quite a different story!

Never once were we allowed to leave early. More often than not, we were held over after 5PM. They also threw in night and Saturday sessions that were not even on the damn schedule!

Cleve "no breaks" Backster made sure that we were in class on time and never left early. It was a total DRAG.....but I am glad they did it. I needed the education.

At lunch, we brought in food and stayed in the classroom. Cleve usually had guys like Paul Redden (on his day off) hanging around the classroom to help the Lafayette users. Other experienced examiners were also there during the lunch hour to help out.

Even the hosted class BBQ was mandatory!

Polygraph school is not for the weak at heart. It is a serious subject and takes a lot of dedication. I can only hope the staff at the school has the same dedication.

On that note, if there was anything wrong with the way Tom was running his school, I know he will correct it. He is that kind of man. He should have never been slammed the way he was by the APA report.

Ted

[This message has been edited by Ted Todd (edited 09-08-2007).]

posted 09-08-2007 07:57 PM            

quote:

---

Barry, you are wrong about your coffee analogy---as roving officers are not inspecting coffee shops businesses. A better analogy is that of restaurant health inspector-----a highly regulated field-----with no free cups of coffee.

---

No, the reason that comes up in police ethics classes is because you may stop the person who provided that coffee for a traffic stop and then give him "special" treatment or what could be perceived as "special" treatment, e.g., only a warning. I've seen officers who could do their jobs regardless of what "bonus" he might lose out on, and I've seen others do the unethical, i.e., ask for charges to disappear so as not to offend the guy who passes out the freebies. Your analogy is better, but the point is the same.

quote:

---

Unlike US colleges who have 3 accreditation bodies, polygraph schools have only one.

---

Where do you get those numbers? There are dozens of accreditors. There are six regional accreditors, and schools are usually accredited by the one in their region. Don't be fooled: polygraph schools could be accredited by the same accrediting agencies our universities are. Most wouldn't measure up though. (DACA is regionally accredited. Elmer Criswell's and Sam Braddock's schools are part of regionally accredited colleges, and there may be more.)

quote:

---

That one man seemed to have either intentionally or inadvertently (through another's actions without the Inspector's knowledge) handed the enemy a sensitive inspection investigation report.

---

Unless TV acted on his own, he didn't "inadvertently" do anything. Presumably, he was charged with conducting the inspection and drafting a report. (It is only if TV is the leak, that he has any culpability, and we shouldn't be going there now.)

quote:

---

Barry, am I spreading rumors here or am I engaging in internal journalism here?

---

Unless you consider the publications that tell us how aliens ate our president and replaced him with two-headed beast that looks like Michael Jackson and Rosie O, then no, it's not journalism. Journalists aren't supposed to engage in rumors. If they have sources they have tested and determined to be reliable, then they say why they believe what they believe, but you just through out that you heard a rumor. Did you hear from somebody with first-hand knowledge? Why do you believe him or her? Why hasn't he or she raised the issue?

quote:

---

since when does asking any elected officials hard questions about scandelous events a witch hunt?

---

Easy: when it's based on rumor and innuendo.

I for one don't recommend TV even consider a response at this point.

posted 09-08-2007 08:05 PM            

quote:

---

Who here DID NOT get out early from poly school classes---or ANY classes at any institution for that matter? Honestly, who here had polygraph classes that were timed like a bank safe?

---

That's not the issue, and sure, some people get out early. The question here is how often that occurred. TV was there and saw they got out early. What does that mean? Probably nothing by itself. If they were out early every day, then that's where TV's math comes in: the total is too short.

We don't know which is accurate though, which is why we can't say one way or the other.

I'm adjunct faculty at a regionally accredited school, and believe me, they don't want us cheating people out of class time for two reasons: 1) they paid for it, and 2) they feared the accreditors who set minimum classroom hours.

posted 09-08-2007 08:50 PM            

quote:

---

That's not the issue, and sure, some people get out early. The question here is how often that occurred. TV was there and saw they got out early. What does that mean? Probably nothing by itself. If they were out early every day, then that's where TV's math comes in: the total is too short.

---

I rarely find occasion to disagree with you Barry, so here goes.

There is a bigger issue here than the number of hours.

Its a leadership accountability issue. Do we want a professional association in which our leadership engages in underhanded tempter tantrums like releasing information.

It sounds as if the APA BOD has already reached its conclusion on this, and that the conclusion might not be consistent with the "findings" of this investigation report.

Its is common that matters of discipline are confidential, so, we might very well have a leak at the BOD level. Such behavior, if our suspicions are correct, cannot be for the good of the association or profession, and are self-serving only.

Of course, we don't know who provided the leak. But unless people ask questions - loudly - we offer only a tacit form of assent to the situation as it is, as if nothing is wrong.

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 09-08-2007 08:59 PM         

As for Barry's advice to TV to not answer/address any questions here-----what gives? Are you implying that the position he holds is above public inquiry? This isn't a criminal matter here, it's an industry matter. Sheesh Barry, you sound like a defense attorney-----this isn't a trial, it's a few good questions. I am inviting TV to a rumor-crushing opportunity here, not a rumor milling opportunity.

If TV doesn't want to blog, so be it-----it doesn't indicate anything. If he wants to call me a shmuck for asking the questions, than he should do so. If he wants to take an interest in the "polygraph street" and take a stroll through the serfdom trenches here----great. If he wants to sue me for telling him that APA has a crummy reputation (rumored mind you) for school certification, policy guidelines, transperency, election processes, and a host of other modalities------well than bummer.
I ask the questions now because I love this profession and believe that we deserve greatness, and I hope TV and I can agree on that at least.

It's funny Ted, one of the friends of mine went to the school you mentioned and said that there were definite times of getting out early due to transportation/ ferrying issues to the residences. Again, I suppose because my friend isn't here writing it himself, it is only a rumor.

posted 09-08-2007 09:52 PM         

It must be a rumor. Backster sends all resident students to the same (Nice) apartment complex on Coranado Island. We would all pack 5-6 people in the same car just to save on gas and parking. I assure you that when the school bell rang, it rang for everyone at the same time.

posted 09-08-2007 10:04 PM            

I'm not sure we disagree. What I meant there was that if people got out early one day, so what? Getting out early on occasion is built in to the hours. It's when it violates the contracts and standards all have agreed to that it becomes problematic.

And, no, that's not the only issue, if I implied that one.

Stat,

You are now asking new and legitimate questions. That's not where you were before.

You deleted your original post, which is good, so debating what people can no longer see makes little sense.

Let me make this point though: You said this isn't a witch-hunt, and you pointed out that the witches were innocent. Were they not first victims of unfounded allegations based on rumors? Did the rumors take on a life of their own eventually resulting the the death of those falsely accused?

It's no wonder I sound like a defense attorney. I can see where this might lead. I think it's unwise for anybody to waste time and energy responding to baseless rumors, and I think it's irresponsible to bring them up like this. (By the way, it doesn't matter if this is the NY Times or a board where only the polygraph community participates. If a man's reputation is harmed, it doesn't matter.)

There was an election just a couple weeks ago. TV lost, yes, but I didn't hear a single Dutton vote was cast because there was fear TV was on the take.

If anybody is guilty of wrongdoing, it needs to be dealt with. Let's not lose that in this exchange.

posted 09-08-2007 10:16 PM         

I think we can all agree on that. This HOPEFULLY private, forum is a great place for us to exchange ideas, argue, disagree and agree. I think we should continue to do just that. It is very healthy for the polygraph profession.

Keep up the good work guys!

posted 09-09-2007 09:12 AM         

Regarding shorting a student of required hours: My experience with the school I attended required we sign in and out of any class. We also had extra classes on Saturday's on occasion to help us learn. I was never short changed in any manner in the hours of attendance.

If the students of the School are obtaining the information they need to conduct proper examinations, the school is doing a good job. I have not meet an examiner from the Marston School that was not proficient and educated. Other than this experience I have no knowledge of the workings of the Marston School and would never judge or speculate on the quality of the school or its graduates.

We need to end this thread for now and wait for a decision from the APA. George is having a ball with all of OUR speculation and Half A__ guesses on what MIGHT be occurring. Lets take a break here and wait for a decision from the APA Board that WE elected and placed in charge of this matter.

This post is not intended to ruffle feelings, just express an opinion. (Opinions are like arm pits, everyone has a couple and some just stink) Maybe mine is the latter, but I own it.

[This message has been edited by Bill2E (edited 09-09-2007).]

posted 09-09-2007 11:34 AM            

quote:

---

I believe it is too early for anyone to make a decision at this time.

---

Exactly - and this isn't the place to raise every rumor we've heard and hold an arraignment either.

I think we can all still express our displeasure that a one-sided investigation report was leaked - just in case we haven't beat that one to death. We can also discuss what we might think of these issues aside from the investigation, e.g., "Would longer or shorter hours be beneficial?" or whatever the issues bring to mind. (That's just an example. I have no desire to discuss that one.)

I thought of this one: assume the allegations are true for any school. What responsibility does the APA have to the students of the school it accredits? After all, accreditation is supposed to be an attestation that says "we declare you'll get what you pay for...." (I don't know that I want to talk about that one either, but my point is, these are more ethical issues for which we've yet to define what is right and what isn't.)

Stat,

Have you considered volunteering for the grievance committee? They might be able to use a "call it like he sees it" man. You're blunt, but well-reasoned, even if I don't always agree. (Sometimes, I can't even agree with myself, so I'd like to think you're in good company.)

Tom,

Thanks for the info. I don't think you'll find anybody here who's heard a bad thing about your school - other than this allegation. It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.

posted 09-09-2007 09:28 PM         

I am not sure what state you live in.

In California, anybody can pretty much watch and record anyone in public. Just ask Ms. Spears or Ms. Hilton.

They can record you and post it all over the internet.

Sucks..don't it?

posted 09-10-2007 10:06 AM            

Anyone may say what they wish but to even insinuate that TV would take a bribe to pass a school is absolutely ludicrous! Ask any school director we have who has ever been inspected by TV. He has inspected every school on our list.

As for the Marston Academy inspection report, I have a pretty good idea as to how it got on the anti-site and it wasn't from a board member and it sure as hell wasn't from TV.

Start with PEOA and Grogan and his long time buddy who attended Tom's school and a CAPE seminar and then published his "findings" on the anti-site using very similar language style and you won't be far off. I might have been born at night but I wasn't born last night!

Tom, I had long conversations with you and a number of emails trying to get you set up and running. You had problems and we worked them out to your advantage to get your school up and accredited. You were treated very fair and every effort was made to accommodate you so that you could get the APA accreditation. You got caught shorting the class times and it got reported on the anti-site, creating a stir. The APA had to follow up on it. No matter what is done, it won't make you happy and it won't be nearly severe enough to make the anti-polygraph folks happy either.

Finally, how in the hell would one investigate an allegation of late starts and early departures from class unless they watched it first? You should be spending your time fixing the problem and getting onboard with the program rather than crying in your beer about how you were treated.

There was a time several years ago when an APA inspection was a “grip and grin” a few drinks over dinner and a cursory review of whatever paper was provided. Rubber stamp inspections ended when TV took over the accreditation process and anyone who has ever been with him to be trained as an inspector damn sure knows the detailed process he uses to inspect.

posted 09-10-2007 02:07 PM         

Is it an official announcement by you that Tom got "Caught" shorting class time? That should be published on the APA web site in the members area, not on this board as a first time report, then we could discuss it. As I said before, We should make no decision until the APA publishes the findings. I respect you and your comments, however unless this is the final report from the APA itself, it should not be alleged that "Tom got caught"

These type posts add to the many problems we have within the APA and the infighting in this organization. I am a member and I am considering just staying with the AAPP where we don't seem to have these problems, this adds to that consideration.

We do not need more dissension within the organization, we need a more cohesive organization.

posted 09-10-2007 02:22 PM            

I was not stating that Tom got caught by the APA. I was stating that he was reported to Anti-polygraph, The state of California and to the APA in a complaint for shorting classes. If I did not make myself clear, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My comments are my own like everyone else on this "private forum".

posted 09-10-2007 02:57 PM         

1. The Ethics and Grievance Committee receives and expeditiously, fairly and impartially investigates all allegations of misconduct against members of this Association. All allegations shall be in writing, signed by the accuser and sent to the Chairperson of the Committee. The committee shall not consider, investigate nor act upon any allegations which does not meet the criteria.

2. The accused member shall have 30 days from receipt of the allegations/charges to respond to the Chairperson. Failure to provide requested information to the Grievance Committee shall be grounds for probation, suspension or termination of membership. Upon receipt of the response, the Chairperson will determine if the allegations/charges are without merit and should be dismissed or whether disciplinary proceedings should be initiated.

3. If disciplinary proceedings are initiated, the accused member shall have 30 days from the date of notification by the Chairperson to request a hearing.. Such request shall be in writing and addressed to the Chairperson. The Chairperson shall, within 60 days, appoint a representative(s) of the Committee to conduct the hearing in the state, province or municipality of the accused member. The accused shall have the right to legal counsel or other advocate and may call witnesses to provide evidence on his or her behalf.

4. Upon consideration of the evidence and testimony, within 10 days, the hearing representative(s) will submit their findings and recommendation to the Chairperson for submission to the full committee for review and comment. The Chairperson shall be governed by a majority vote of the Committee and will notify the accused member of its findings and recommendations.

5. If disciplinary action is recommended, the Chair will present the evidence and recommendation to members of the Board of Directors, who will, by majority vote, determine disciplinary action to be taken against the member, and may censure, suspend or terminate membership in the Association.

6. If the accused fails to request a hearing or fails to appear at a hearing subsequent to a request for such, the Committee may proceed with its investigation as deems necessary to make a fair and impartial decision. The findings and recommendations will be provided to the accused and if disciplinary action is required, forwarded to the Board of Directors.

7. Information obtained by the Grievance Committee is considered privileged and must not be released outside the Committee or Board of Directors.

posted 09-10-2007 08:33 PM            

While the per diem may not be much, it is paid (along with the plane fare, car rental, hotel room, and miscellaneous expenses) by APA members' dues.

Is George Maschke going to continue to dictate how our money is spent?

posted 09-10-2007 08:45 PM            

Yes, it was an anonymous complaint. Even now, no one knows who sent the original accusation to George.

Lou

posted 09-10-2007 10:01 PM         

The only reason an examiner should post on anti is to argue/debate (nonombre), harrass/demoralize (palerider) or create mindless megabyte diversion from scandals (a.k.a Lloyd Phloense.) Antipoly is of no use to us, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a self-serving narcissist.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-10-2007).]